Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! - Touchy Subjects
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Anymouse
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Indeed it was. I understand there is still controversy over it, because some say that it was Samoan society that changed, and that at the time the book was written it accurately desribed Samoan life. Others assert that the Book was an anthropological travesty.
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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Like we don't get more than a few "this is just sex & you'll leave me for a girl to lead a normal life" in yaoi. My god, it's still more prevelent to get the "I don't like boys. I like YOU"(The Clamp-The One Meant For Me-theme). But isn't that ALSO part of growing up? Donny Osmond's big hit "Puppy Love"? In fact, there was a time when the commonly accepted idea behind Japanese being as homophobic as they are yet yaoi & yuri existing is their commonally accepted believe that the first crush will be same gender because that's what one usually hangs out with at a certain age (since the opposite gender has cooties), but first crushes/puppy love IS something one is expected to grow out of. In fact, you want to start a fight amongst yaoi fans, bring up CPM's yaoi theory as explained by their editor when they launched Be Beautiful--that in standard shojo, some readers can feel competitive with the lead & thus not read the story. No, it does not mean the reader wants to land the bishonen of the story. I can relate because I AM very critical of female characters in stories. I'll take whatever from guys because they're guys & guys have the right to be stupid, but it irritates me no end to follow stupid heroines. I like Bulma/DBZ & a handful of others (From Far Away) but mostly female characters annoy the hell out of me. A guy can act like a stupid chick in yaoi & it doesn't bug me. It's a stupid dude. I've READ Akahori & I love him to death. He's J-I-G-G-L-E. Mouse. Saber Marionette. Sorcerer Hunters. Magical Shopping Arcade Abenoboshi (boobie bombs). Master of Mosquiton. Mouse. Kashimashi can't be that far off his normal target. (There's some stuff I'd love to see brought over of his) Honest, I can't see that MANGA is the place to go for deep, insightful reading on the topic of young people finding their identity & maybe discovering they're homosexual. It's sort of like seeing the movie rather than reading the book. For my money it's art telling a story so I am looking for frames/panels that make me suck in a breath. Yeah, every once in awhile a manga-ka comes up with an amazing plot, but I buy manga for the same reason I have over 100 artbooks-pretty pictures to look at. So expecting to read deep, meaningful yuri stories is expecting a hell of a lot. I'd say it's like expecting an anime based on a game to be stupendous. It really doesn't happen very often at all. Artists like Est Em tend to be the exception. I'm usually amazed to find one good "oh wow" idea out of 50 manga.
I'm not really sure I buy this. I'd think the bigger issue has to do with pay, etc. Right now the major pay for teachers is math & science & teacher in itself is not all that high-paying a job. We seem to go crazy around the turn of the century, don't we? I'd love it if half the laws being enacted would actually DO something to protect children, but most of it seems to be the empty posturing of politicians to put a law on the books to make their constituents believe they're tough on crime. It would also be wonderful if parents were more responsible. God knows I kept an eye on my child & knew what she was into. She didn't get internet access until she was around 14 or so & she knew damned well not to give out personal info nor make "dates" with strangers on the net. Last edited by CCSYueh on Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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agila61
 Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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I'm note sure I follow what this has to do with growing the market for the kind of yuri I'd like to see more of. I get the first part of the argument, but this part baffles me how to translate it into action to support the development of the market. |
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PMDR
Posts: 141 |
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You are mistaken or misinformed. The offsite event you speak of was organized by a third-party unconnected with the convention. It was never organized by or had anything whatsoever to do with the convention. It was never "held again" by the con because the con never held the first one. You'd have to ask the person who did hold it that one time why they never repeated it. We don't know. We didn't go. We were too busy AT the con. Anyway, I quit being a part of AWA because it became clear that my continued enjoyment OF anime was being damaged by having to help run a con every year. 15 years ago, a con was an important part of being an anime fan and a worthy thing to do. Now, there is honestly nothing a con can offer me that I cannot get on my own on my own time, without spending a sleepless weekend wondering if the hotel's new rock gardens will end up thrown thru the new glass windows, or if somebody in a game room is going to smash another hole in the drywall, or spending the Sunday night after the con trying to mitigate a 4chan attack on the AWA website because 4chan decided they didn't like who won the AWA costume contest. As if AWA rigged it! Nope. I don't need any of that to keep on enjoying anime. I'm spending AWA weekend this year on a beach enjoying the sun and surf and sand and bikinis and the total lack of ravers and con funk and pulled fire alarms. -Patrick former AWA vice con-chairperson |
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dizzon
 Posts: 338 |
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I know I'll regret adding my opinion to the perpetual downward spiral that is the lolicon debate but I'm bored so what the heck. Here are a couple quick comments, do with them as you will.
Stupid laws, stupid people who interpret those laws and unjust convictions of said laws exist all over the world and are not only phenomena of the "West". I assume if you can read this you know how to use an internet search engine. People scare easily, and when told a problem is getting worse hysteria ensues, it's human nature. I'm not telling people it's right or wrong, just reality....A reality that also exists in the "East". Chemical castration anyone! http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/08/117_70679.html |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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We've conversed before. I mentioned I was born in 1960 so I've been around long enough. I was exposed to anime as a child in SoCal since we were part of the LA tv audience & got Astro as well as Kimba, Gigantor & Speed Racer, but they so localized, I never realized they were not made in the US so it was around 2001 after my husband died that I really got into anime. Living in San Diego, I've attended the largest pop-culture con in the US (Around 120,000 attendees last year-don't believe the 2010 numbers have been posted) This year they had the first major incident in 41 years with one attendee swinging a pen at another attendee in Hall H which is the big media event location (Mostly Hollywood movies panels). In all the years I've attended, we haven't had any issue with glomping or all of the other stuff I see talked about in this forum. I saw no notice banning those stupid horns this year, yet I also didn't see nor did I hear any. Our biggest negatives are being treated like hamsters in a maze by the Elite (We can't sit along most of the hall walls, & there are 1-way halls in the panel areas) & stupid geeks stopping dead in walking areas to take pictures of scantily-clad booth babes & costumed attendees, but other than the occasional full panel the con administrators have been bringing off an excellent event co-ordinating over 100,000 bodies, numerous celebrities, an award show, & the masquerade ball for 41 years. I had been told by a co-worker the con was being targeted for a protest by that one church (Woodbury? Woodland?), but I forgot all about it until I heard someone inside laughing about how pathetic it was--cops lined up separating the protesters from a second group protesting the church & the attendees just going about their business. Every year at con there are multiple events organized by the LBGT group including a mixer. Since everyone whining about the lack of yuri are expressing how rare the cream-of-the-crop stories you are looking for are & how small you are as an audience, your only choice is do without (& stop worrying about how much yaoi there is. Trust me, every manga & anime fan I know has a personal wish list of titles they'd love to see but don't expect will ever be licensed. Check out Legend of the Galactic Heroes which a lot of people would love, but it's a premium product the Japanese will likely never release. They put out a special volume in Japan a couple years ago-only around $2200) or take action yourselves (as some yaoi fans have done. Drama Queen was a fan group that actually published some titles & they actually got another volume printed & apparently have another title I order 3 yrs ago lined up to print later this year). One option might be to forgo the obvious manga publishers & pitch the titles you're interested in to one of the existing LBGT publishers. Hell, considering their presense every year at SDCCI, there might be some existing domestic titles that fit your bill on an autobiographical nature even. Because the issue I'm seeing is there isn't even that much in Japan by your comments. You're looking for titles that deal with a true-life experience feel which are miniscule in Japan. Yaoi is a branch of shojo, not shonen or seinen where one would expect to see a true-life homosexual story portrayed & Yuri as it exists in Japan is aimed at the male audience & not the actual lesbian audience in Japan which the type of story you're looking for would theoretically be aimed at. But all this yaoi-rage & yaoi envy is misplaced. Yaoi fans are being yaoi fans-shojo/josei romance fans only the couple is male/male instead of male/female. You think yaoi drops into our laps & it doesn't. WIth the recession, we've lost a some of the publishers who brought us our yaoi & the remaining publishers have scaled back their releases. If you check out the yaoi audience, you will see what I've been saying is true. "Buy what you can" is a common refrain because we recognise that the only way to get product is to support the product. It's one of the few segments of the manga/anime audience where fansubs are removed in support of the publishers. I've seen members of boards help one another figure out where they can locate out of print titles (S was an issue so people who found a store with copies let others on the board know). If the publishers license a title & it doesn't sell, doesn't it make sense they'll be shy about licensing similar stuff? Even a tv show that gets lots of critical acclaim & awards stands a reasonable chance of being cancelled if it gets low ratings. The prestige isn't always enough for the network to accept the cost of making the product at a loss. Ultimately, as resistant as I am to digital delivery, it's probably the most logical system for smaller titles. The publisher cuts the cost of printing & the distribution cost is, I assume, greatly reduced. Apparently Kindle titles can be read on one's computer so at least one issue (waiting to see which format "wins") is less important than I've been assuming it was. {MOD EDIT: Added whitespace, since the blockofendlesstextwithoutanypause was making my brain hurt. Please, make an effort to format your posts, if they are longer than a paragraph. -- abunai} |
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zgripţuroicǎ
 Posts: 140 Location: Newburgh, NY |
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What I'm talking about has nothing to do with supporting the publishers when I call you smug. It's your "Oh yeah, I've got 3500 volumes of manga, so STFU, you're not as good as me!" attitude that you tried to use earlier in this thread. Maybe that's not how you intended it to seem, but that's how it came off to me.
And where exactly do I complain about how much yaoi there is? You're putting words in my mouth here, generalizing from other yuri fans about me. I also have series that I don't care a great deal about on my shelves because I liked the author. I don't really like Tsubasa that much, but I buy it because I like many of Clamp's other works. But if publishers are putting out a stream of works by authors who don't do anything I like, why should I support them? Looking at the other comments here and elsewhere, it seems like most publishers doing any yuri are putting out the variety that fans here are least interested in. If I want works like those of Ebine Yamaji, buying things like Marimite gives publishers the wrong idea of what I'm interested in. You're making a nonsensical argument, both from a logical and economic standpoint.
Once again, yes, it certainly helped that when publishers began putting these books out, yaoi fans bought them. But if the publishers never released yaoi in any significant numbers, you yaoi fans couldn't buy them at all. Even if I went out and purchased every yuri title released in the US, including the ones that fall thoroughly into the category of "bunk I don't want to see more of," it would be a tiny fraction of what yaoi fans could buy because there is more yaoi published. More importantly, it would most likely lead to more of the same variety of stuff I don't want being put out.
Not raging about it, pointing out the obvious facts you seem bent on misconstruing. Have you heard of the phrase "vote with your wallet?" If publishers put out something I want, or even something by an artist I like that I don't really buy, I'll pick it up. Having looked around, it seems like French publishers aren't quite as idiotic as those in the US, something I realised earlier today while looking up other series. They seemed to have managed the thought "Hmm, we've got fans asking for yuri, but when we put out Marimite or similar titles, they tell us that it's not what they want. Let's look to see what sort of titles we can put out that are yuri, but not in that vein." I'm just going to start buying the French editions, since I can read them and understand them. But this just helps my point, and effectively kills yours. It shows that these books aren't impossible to sell at a reasonable price (they cost about $12.50 a volume, although in fairness, many of them are being put out by Asuka Comics, which is a rather large company akin to Tokyopop or Viz), and more importantly that it's not impossible for publishers to figure out what people want when they don't buy everything that a company puts out. It's not my problem that large American publishers are too terrified of being associated with something controversial here to publish it, or that the smaller imprints are too thick to have the idea, "Hey, these aren't selling, let's try something a little different." If they want to remain stagnant here, let them, but they're not getting my money for titles I don't want when I can just as easily go to amazon.fr and make a few bulk purchases a year, and have plenty of the titles I do want. And before you try and play the pity card for how much you skimp so you can afford to support the artists, you may want to consider you're not the only one doing such a thing. I walk 5.5 miles to work so I don't have to lose more of my disposable income to car expenses. It's a two miles walk to the train station, followed by a two hour commute (one way) to school so that I can go to a decent college that won't break my bank account or leave me under $100k+ of debt when I graduate. I go to school and work between 30-40 hours a week. I have a $60 a week grocery budget that frequently gets tapped for extra book/manga/music money. I've bought one new winter coat in the last 5 years, which cost me a massive $15 because I bought it second hand. You're not the only one who skimps on other things to support their hobby.
Okay, we've got something we can agree on for a change. Perhaps it would be best if publisher put out many of the smaller titles in a digital format, at least initially, rather than sending everything to the press, no matter how small or unlikely to succeed. They could take the ones that sold best, and if there was enough interest, issue those in a print format afterwards. This would probably work fairly well, so long as the publishers don't shoot themselves in the foot with DRM or prices as similar endeavours have done in Japan. |
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Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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I don't think you have understood me and others on this forum. We have no "yaoi-rage" yaoi-envy". The only thing I (and others) have made a statement on is your comment on how the reason that there is so much yaoi is because you buy it and thusly the reason why there isn't much yuri is because the yuri fans don't buy it (you even compared yuri fans to those who read scanlated Bleach). Now, this is my one and only problem with your comments. I have asked you already once to rescind that comment, and now I'll ask you again. I don't want 10 paragraphs on the history of yaoi in America. I realize that it had a humble beginning. But the fact of the matter is, not only do you have yaoi because you buy it. You have yaoi because it's there in Japan. So even if yuri fans buy all the stuff here, there just plain isn't hardly anything in Japan that they can bring over. You finally seemed to get that point from the bold quote above, so I ask you please, stop being so militant. Nobody is saying anything bad about the yaoi fanbase. It's great that its fans support it as much as they do. And just recognize that you made a comment that was completely out-of-line, which is what incited this rather long (and quite honestly pointless) debate anyway. |
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agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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I disagree with most of this. I believe that if we can find a way to support the best of the yuri and vaguely yuri-ish titles and series that are available, and can grow the market, we'll also get more of the more adult yuri. Its not like the more adult yuri is out in its own market space ... in the serials in Japan, its mixed in among the schoolgirl crush stories as a way of broadening their target demographic. But there is no way that the economics of print publication outside of Japan work for those kind of quarterly or bi-monthly serials, so the only viable way to get those serials out is some form of low-overhead digital distribution. As far as worrying about how much yaoi there is, I believe I've been pigeonholed. I think the idea that there is some kind of quota of yuro+yaoi and if there is lots of yaoi it is crowding out yuri is completely out of touch with reality. They are two different microniche markets in a niche market, and the number of licenses in one microniche market has basically no impact on the number of licenses in a different microniche market with very little target audience overlap. |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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I'm sorry. All I mean by that is I put my money where my mouth is. Frankly, life's too short to worry about the fact we'll likely never see Legend of the Galactic Heroes in the US or that Saint Seiya never got a fair shake here so again, it will never get the respect here it gets in France, Mexico & other countries where it's more popular. I'd love to get all the yaoi anime stuff they've made, but anime is still heavily slanted toward guys. Original question
Doesn't this set the scene? In fact, if you look, vashfanatic's comment came right after my first post on this thread, so isn't it at all possible I was reponding to the original question & response? vashfanatic-
Yes, it's from a manga, but it set the scene for all the debate that came after. Can it not be seen as supporting the original question's stance that this is some sort of unfair competition? You & the others have been "Pity us for out lack of the specific type of yuri we want because you have so much" yet you admit you are exceptions to the fact that yuri IS aimed at the male audience & thus in it's true form, it is the stuff of hentai & "you'll grow out of it"? Frankly, it's really similar to Studio Pierrot being happy they pulled in as many male viewers as they did on Saiyuki (as reported in Newtype USA. No, I'm not going over all my back issues to find the exact issue). Nice, but the target was gals.
animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=39065 animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=42428
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??? PPP was pitched as the Excel Saga sequel in the US, not yuri. If you're including that, you might as well throw in Sailor Moon, Steel Angel Kurumi or Key Princess. I came across Utena when I asked an anime shop in the Valley for a suggestion for an appropriate anime for my 11 yr old who liked Sailor Moon. I've always seen it held up as classic shojo right up there with Sailor Moon so I've always seen the yuri as a sidebar. In fact, it has token yaoi & heterosexual thrown in so it is more an exploration of female coming-of-age. Hell, Anthy's been with everyone that won her so you can't really hold her up as lesbian or even a good rolemodel in that she's the source of all the angst just as Yui in Fushigi Yugi's jealousy over Miaka falling for Tamahome was the cause of all the carnage in that title. Even Utena's who she is over a rather strange take on her male rolemodel rather than an actual lesbian sexual orientation. Utena is more girl power than anything else I hate Anthy as I hate Yui as I hate those who think they have the right to screw up other people's lives for their petty desires. Mariaholic dub debate- animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=125173 So forgive me for seeing the usual whining about how the various companies decided to release titles as examples of the fanbase being fractured & picky, but
And all this in no way supports my observation the yuri audience is more fractured than the yaoi audience where there is more support overall so the companies can bring over a lot. Would you not agree that had the yaoi audience taken your "Why should I support yuri content I don't agree with" that no matter how much yaoi there is in Japan, there would not be the amount of yaoi here that there is? I put my money where my mouth was & supported Bandai Visual. Yeah, $50 for 2 eps subbed was a lot, but they were titles I didn't think we'd see otherwise. Yaoi fans do the same. Frankly I have no solutions for you since you don't believe supporting the companies that are bothering to bring titles over are worth supporting & you don't seem to care to go the domestic LBGT route. vashfanatic said
But you could insert yaoi for yuri because as I've been trying to point out-surprise surprise, the majority of yaoi is written to appeal to the target female audience just as it appears the majority of yuri is written for the target male audience which I assume this question was originally aimed at. We get the same amount of schoolboy stuff & drunk office workers & guys specifically in love with the guy in the title, but otherwise they're into gals. I'm not deriding the amount of yuri in Japan. There is larger Yuri content & yuri is by it's original nature a male audience genre in Japan. You're the equivalent of a man looking for actual homosexual-relatable content in yaoi which is few & far between also because the target audience is female. Your complaint is there's not enough exceptions to the rule in yuri. Realistically, you are asking an impossible task considering the state of homosexuality in Japan so you'd probably be more successful if you looked for Western comics of a lesbian nature. I have never looked for them, but I'd assume there would be more by females & thus more to your liking. I am a bit perplexed that you're crying about a lack of something you seem to understand is the exception to the rule like mis-printed stamps in stamp collecting-usuallydestroyed so the few that make it out have a higher value. The few yuri titles to make it out of the type you are speaking are even possibly a nod to servicing all audiences in Japan that the Japanese industry seems to possess or experiments is seeing if such titles will go over. Basically, you're limiting yourselves & I can't help you there. If you're talking yuri content AS the accepted definition goes, it does pop up in hentai & such a lot. It seems almost required to have girl-on-girl action. The girl attracted to the heroine isn't all that uncommon in shojo either, just doomed to failure as the lead will likely end up with her intended guy. Hell, in Fushigi Yugi how many characters died because Yui was jealous Miaka was 'leaving her behind" falling for Tamahome? Just as in Black Cat you know Creed has no chance with Train-the gay characters are there, but stand little chance of happiness unless they're side characters like Kazuki/Jubel in GetBackers or Touya/Yukito in CCS. In fact, for my money the lesbian chicks get a bit better portrayal than the gay dudes who are often the flaming gay stereotypes outside of yaoi. This is likely the problem-that yuri IS targeted at guys & incorporated into more mainstream stuff that the audience that wants to see specific yuri stories is smaller. I assume it's not unlike what our lesbian community has had to put up with over the years. I recall one report out of Hillcrest in the 1980's reporting the lesbian community wasn't happy when one of their bars was taken over by guys because the guys brought an entirely different scene into the bar. There's lots of girl-on-girl stuff out there, but it's usually filtered through a male perspective.
This is on option I've been pointing out- import what you want However I fail to see how a French publisher publishing what it knows will sell to a French audience in any way shoots any of my arguments or even the US publishers such as 7 Seas in the foot. I thought an Oki title had been published here, so I checked Amazon & none came up. but there is something in German. That simply means she has German fans, not that the publishers here are wrong. Hell, Saint Seiya is popular in France, Has absolutely nothing to do with how miserably it has done here. I do note that Asuka is a Japanese magazine that runs BL-ish stuff in Japan such as Kyo Kara Maoh & note amongst the list of titles it does have many tagged shojo-ai & wonder if there is a connection to the Japanese company Kadokawa Shoten
... Yuri is controversial but yaoi isn't. OK I'd think there are quite a few LBGT titles that have seen it to print in the US mainstream publishers. Del Rey, one of the largest fantasy publishers seem pretty good in bring over risky titles such as Zetsubo-Sensei. Hell, Gintama is seen as risky because it's so Japanese. Just because they aren't taking the risks you desire doesn't mean almost every title outside the huge stuff like Naruto or stuff by Clamp doesn't carry some risk for the publishers.
So negative. I was just making a suggestion as to how you might afford more so you could support the publishers so they might bring more over. You're already making your sacrifices, so ok. You jumped into this debate a page back(7), so a lot of the conversation was already ongoing & you dove in assuming I was hating on yuri when I'm not. I say the yaoi audience has made itself big by their own work. You & the others seem to suggest it's falling into our laps & we didn't work for it. Your suffering is greater. Sorry, I come from the "work for it" mentality so I believe if I don't support the titles I want, I DON'T deserve to get them. My fan days start back in the late 1970's when we didn't have VHS tapes of shows we loved.
... Isn't this what I've been saying & you all insist supporting the publishers can't in any way get you more yuri? Last edited by CCSYueh on Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:46 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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See what I mean be being pigeonholed? I never said anything of the sort. What I asked about was the relevance of this:
I couldn't see the connection except in a kind of stream of consciousness kind of way. |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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agila-
I've been conversing with about 6 of you so no, everything doesn't necessarily apply to everything all of you said. You even basically said what I said that pissed everyone off that yuri fans should support yuri publishers in the name of getting more when most of the others are just complaining there isn't enough of what they want licensed. In fact, the titles being tossed around seem to cover both shojo-origin titles & shonen(seinen?)-oriented titles.
I see you're familiar with Yun Kouga who has this idea we need yuri couples in yaoi hence Earthian & Loveless. If memory serves me, the boys are in a "we'll see" mode at the end of Earthian. I Shall Never Return-starts with a b/g couple with the boy rather hesitant to leave the girl for the other boy. Kizuna- Ranmaru's waiting for Kei to leave him for a girl because he has nothing to offer as a boy I recall a similar idea in Greenwood-one boy positive the other will leave him to provide his parents with grandkids. We won't go into the number of yaoi titles that feature former girlfriends, much less the ones where there's an active girlfriend in part of the story. The problem is, at least with yaoi & I assume with yuri-these are stories written not by homosexuals & lesbians, but often it seems people whose only experience with the opposite sex is siblings, old friends from school, & tv. Going to a host bar has been named as research for some of these stories. The issue is the stories aren't written for the gay audience, but for the straight audience as a fantasy. Have you tried ALC Publishing? http://www.rightstuf.com/1-800-338-6827/catalogmgr/LqG7bU8hGd6V2h9UiG/browse/category/4/5532/0 |
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zgripţuroicǎ
Posts: 140 Location: Newburgh, NY |
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It shoots it in the foot as in, you said not too long ago something along the lines of "Hey, if you don't buy all the crap yuri titles that get released, how are they supposed to know they should license these ones?" It's nothing to do with the success of other series, but simple supply and demand. If the publishers in the US are willing to pull their heads out of the sand, and try something different, I'll be happy to support them. Until then, they lose my money to the French publishers. If you were responding to the original question, I still feel like you fall short. That person just asked, could it be that yaoi fans constitute a larger demographic than yuri fans? You've almost immediately extrapolated this into
I'm just not seeing this yaoi rage, and I'm thinking you're just being paranoid. The situation is like if I said, "You know, I really want to see more books available in Ancient Greek." and then you come along saying "God, if you Ancient Greek fans were like us English fans of books and bought them when they came out, you'd have more of them. And I'm so sick of you Ancient Greek fans complaining about how much stuff gets published in English, why do you hate on English?" An extreme example in this analogy, yes. But the only time I've brought up yaoi is pointing out to you that the market for it is larger. I haven't seen a single person say anything close to "Man, I hate how much yaoi gets published when I can't get my yuri." so stop acting like all of us are saying that.
Hardly, a gag from a manga played for laughs doesn't quite say what you're trying to force it too. Self-deprecating humour is pretty common in manga of all forms. Aside from that, even if it does signify what you believe it does, you expanded this from one manga-ka's opinion to being the opinion of everyone who likes yuri, as if we signed some sort of agreement saying, "Yes, we all feel exactly the same as this one person." Would you think it fair if I read yaoi until I found one with a misogynist character or story, and then started posting about how all yaoi fans hate women secretly? No, because it's silly to think one person's opinion represents everyone else's.
So four quotations from posters who express a desire for the same sort of yuri versus one asking whether Brian was speaking of older males looking for the same thing as those for or for something else represents an impossibly fractured audience? No, it doesn't.
Not what I was trying to say. In the US, people are so hung up on what other folks might being doing in the privacy of their homes, that anything associated with homosexuality can be considered controversial in many places. If Tokyopop ran extensive yuri or BL series, for some bookstores and chains, that's enough of an "issue" in certain areas, that they just don't want to touch it often overall.
Again with your assumptions. Actually, I read the whole thread before I posted to see if at any point you changed your stance. You've been consistently hostile to yuri fans because of this perceived "yaoi-envy" you keep bringing up. You are the only one in this thread who sees this, the rest of us have been telling you time and again, the amount of yaoi you get is great, it's wonderful you guys support your publishers, but until yuri imprints start running the sort of series we're asking for, we're not planning on buying up every crap series they put out. We haven't been complaining that yaoi fans just had things fall into their lap, or that our suffering is greater. We've simply been complaining that we've been consistently asking for one type of series to be put out, and the publishers keep putting another type that we've told them time and again, "No, we're not interested in that, we told you what we want." If I managed to get a yaoi series published that had bland art, a forgettable series, and irritating characters, would you buy it just because it's yaoi and you want to support the industry? If you're sane, the answer is no. So why do you expect yuri fans to do the same? It's one thing to purchase things that have at least a tenuous link to the sort of titles we want, but you want to impose an unreasonable standard on all yuri fans, saying " Buy everything remotely related to yuri, even the stories and authors you don't want, because you'll be supporting the artists then. If you don't do this, than you can't call yourself fans, because back when I was a youngin' we had to walk 12 miles uphill (both ways) in the snow, with barbed-wire wrapped around our feet for traction because we couldn't afford shoes in order to buy yaoi." We aren't saying we're suffering at all, it's just something we would like to see, and we'd appreciate it if maybe the publishers listened to what we were asking for for a change, instead of releasing garbage stories no one asked for, then scratching their heads and saying "Hey, why is no one buying this? Must be because of scanlations. Damn pirates." And then you act like yaoi fans have been suffering for ages to get their fix, when honestly, you haven't. Yes, your publishers don't bring over everything you want, but they at least manage to bring over a few series you do enjoy, so you can buy them up and say that you want more like that last one.
Again, no. What you're suggesting just hardly makes any sense. I'm not going to spend $400 on books I don't want, on the off chance that possibly, somewhere down the road one of these publishers will put out a book that I do want. Either the current generation of publishers will listen to it's fans and stop putting out the same tired stories that we don't want, or they'll close shop and someone else will step in who actually licenses titles there is a demand for. Perhaps you have money to waste hoping that a publisher you don't like will get big enough off your purchases to start putting out the sort of material you want just for the hell of it, but I don't. I stand by my original example, if I want more shoujo, I don't further that end by purchasing more shonen, I work against it. You're still failing to grasp a crucial and simple aspect of business. Businesses exist to provide a service or product for which there is a demand. Businesses which do this flourish, while those which offer products or services nobody wants (the current generation of yuri publishers) fail. |
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agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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Not now, because there's better available to choose from, but back when the choice was scanty, the answer would have been a resounding yes. That's exactly how yaoi fans built the market to the point where they could start to pick and choose ... by buying any crap that was put out that was yaoi. Publishers could be reasonably confident of a small but loyal buying public, making it worthwhile to find out what kind of titles that buying public responded to especially well. But AFAIU (and I certainly am not expert on either niche) yaoi is a different type of situation in Japan than yuri ... I am not aware of any split like the one behind Yuri Hime / Yuri Hime S, which was supposed to be yuri for girls and yuri for guys, though in the end both target audiences read both magazines so they merged the two quarterlies into a single bi-monthly. I can see the point about not buying loser fanboy yuri ... but if only the loser fanboys buy anything, they are the only ones who will get catered to. Buying the best from what is available is the only way to make more available to have a broader selection to choose from. |
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