Forum - View topicVinland Saga (TV) (all seasons).
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23858 |
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Why do you assume it's gonna be a poopstorm, AC x S? After all, these are Vikings we're talking about. Don't you think they'll just sit down and work out their differences peacefully over a few tankards of mead?
... Ha ha, no, it's gonna be a bloodbath, for sures. |
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ACｘS
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They should sit down, drink their mead with their pinkies up, and sign a treaty to end slavery. /alternateuniverse |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23858 |
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Episode 16
Ain't gonna lie... it was kinda cool to see Thorfinn take up his old double knife wielding stance even if he doesn't have the knives any more. His newfound pacifist stance makes him a good person, but come on: we ain't here to watch good people lead peaceful lives. There's plenty of slice of life shows out there if that's your jam. Fight! Fight! Fight! It takes a lot of sack to be willing to fight a skilled opponent who is armed with a sword and you're only armed with... your limbs. The next episode preview was pretty spoiler-ific so there's no doubt how the Thorfinn - Snake throwdown will end up but the devil will be in the details. The Old Master has opened up a new door for Snake to walk through if he wants it. Does he? We'll see. I smiled at the reference to Snake and his men as guests. Technically, it's true. They are Ketil's retainers, not the Old Master's, and they're on the Old Master's farm, not Ketil's. But the term guest implies there is a willing host who both welcomes and wants you there. In English, I'd say the more proper way to refer to Snake and his men would be as "guests"... the sardonic quotation marks are necessary to convey the full accuracy of the situation. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2885 |
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#16
Well that was a surprise. Even Snake would never have guessed that the target he and his men were so desperately chasing was literally under their noses all morning. However, Snake is not employed by Ketil just for show; unlike the rest of his men he is not easily fooled and Einar's desperate dash for the woods was enough to raise suspicions of the ruse. Once he found out what was going on, there was only one outcome. Now viewers know why Snake and Thorfinn are duking it out in the OP animation. I have to hand it to the VA for Arnheid: that is one hell of a performance she gave for that scene. It sounds genuine as well since some of the words are mangled because of the emotion invested into it. The casting director certainly got what he needed from that, no surprise from the country which has far more experience in developing voice acting talent than the majority of countries elsewhere. I'm not the only one who noticed Snake's sword isn't Norse. That's quite the offer from Sverkel to Snake, all that just for reading the Bible to him. Ordinarily, Sverkel would leave the farm to his son Ketil but the latter doesn't need it since his holdings are massive. Snake initially said he was after Sverkel's (small) farm, but was he saying that to our titular pair in half-jest? Now it is going to be a reality as Sverkel knows his days are numbered, but at what price? Thorfinn has a slash on the side of his face in the trailer, so he must have subdued Snake somehow. Is it enough for the pair to escape? An injured man at death's door from shock with an entire farm of retainers after his blood able to drive a horse cart with Arnheid? Why do I suspect the pair of them are dreaming? No way to tell until next week's episode. This arc has gone for far longer than I initially anticipated, but there's still enough airtime for the big showdown to come so its probably a good length in retrospect. I'm not sure why people are misreading the subtitles and drawing inaccurate conclusions because of the bias of modern definitions to words which were used differently centuries ago. Guests for the Japanese 客人 is entirely accurate and does not require quotation marks in any way. Not to mention the concept isn't unique to 11th century Denmark, pre-imperial China had a similar arrangement between nobility with lands and income and a variety of guests (门客). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retainers_in_early_China As far as Denmark and the rest of the Norse lands were concerned, the royal families then would have used the following relationships to maintain a small corps of household guards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housecarl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thingmen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hird Since Ketil is neither royalty nor nobility, he would have to provide for Snake and his men in return for their services. We as viewers already know they have their own camp, so lodging is not an issue. They are allowed free rein of the horses in Ketil's holdings without requiring permission from the freed farmers working Ketil's lands. They have enough coin of their own to drink and make merry with Olmar, so they are clearly acquiring money from either Snake or Ketil as part of the arrangement. When they claim the horses reward from Gardar's former master's relative Mrs. Ketil has to negotiate with them separately for a cut because she cannot force them to give up a prize unlike the indentured labourers. Snake is an unusual case in that he's cadging off Sverkel instead of staying with the rest of his men in their camp, but Ketil has tacitly allowed this arrangement as Snake once found Sverkel collapsed on his farm before the season started and let Snake freeload with Sverkel to hopefully prevent a repeat occurrence (or worse). The choice of 客人 in the original Japanese is also to differentiate from the use of 奉公人, a term used exclusively by Einar and Thorfinn for the freed farmers working Ketil's lands (who would correspond with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churl). Since the Japanese author is writing about a period and location completely different to what his home audience is used to, the closest equivalents for terminology which his home market is accustomed to is employed to ease comprehension. Consequently any translation of the terms used in this series are going to be literal with no liberties taken as it is not necessary. Snake and his band are not beholden to Ketil beyond their current arrangement, and if they choose to leave and serve someone else for better terms Ketil cannot stop them as they are free men and not compelled to serve under a non-noble like Ketil. Unlike the free farmers (Carls/Churls) under Ketil's service who are effectively indentured to their lands, Snake and his men are indeed guests of Ketil's as described in the original Japanese. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23858 |
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The reason you are not sure is because I was being light-hearted in my comments and as any long time reader of your posts knows, "light-hearted" is not one of your specialties. My only point was that the difference between the current English understanding of the word guest and how it was being used in the context of the show was (to me) comical. There was a book about the American hostages in Iran called Guests of the Ayatollah which treated in the same irony: the hostages were not guests at all, in the conventional current English usage sense. Given that Sverkel was actively complicit in hiding Gardar, I think it's fair to assume he did not want Snake and his men on his property as guests so I found it amusing to see them referred to as such, even if the word was linguistically correct. Have I explained myself clearly enough or do you require additional explication?
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2885 |
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How about you re-read the subtitles where guest is used?
It is not the first time Snake and his men are referred to guests, because that is what 客人 is in this series in comparison to retainers 奉公人. It is very clear they are not Sverkel's guests, they are Ketil's. For instance, in episode 4 Pater also refers to them as 客人 when treating Thorfinn's wounds. Episode 10 Ketil makes Thorfinn and Einar an offer to work on his land after they are freed, and he specifically uses 奉公 as a verb, which is translated as retainers correctly in the subtitles. Even the JP wikipedia entry for Vinland Saga has distinct definitions for the two groups, which are used to delineate the difference between the farmers and the mercenaries. Both Snake and his men along with the rest of the free farmers could all be banded together as Ketil's "retainers" in a different context, but that is not how the author describes them so different titles are used, not that you've ever cared about such distinctions and aren't going to start any time soon. Any further "explanation" from you is only going to muddy the waters on how the terms are used in this adaptation. Guest is not used in the modern sense in this series and never has been, so trying to be funny and being deliberately misleading for your personal pleasure is something I'm more than willing to point out if it means setting the record straight, not that you care anything about what others say. Walls of text clearly mean nothing for readers who don't see them for anything more than a jumble of letters devoid of any meaning to begin with. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23858 |
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Harleyquin, you are a treasure trove of unintentional hilarity, keep it up!
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2885 |
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Typical modus operandi: Lies, lies and more lies and treats the whole thread as an impromptu stand-up comedy skit. I'll continue to discuss the series as I see it, not that random strangers with a clear intent to misinform and make off-topic statements give a damn about anything except their egos.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23858 |
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Believe me, I hope you do continue to discuss the series (and others you are following) as you see it. I've told you before with absolute 100% sincerity that I appreciate your knowledge of both Japanese and English and your obvious intelligence. I learn a ton from you, including in this latest exchange. Sadly, my sense of whimsy will obviously never mesh well with your more earnest sensibility, but oh well!
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ACｘS
Posts: 903 |
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16:
Harleyquin pointed out that Snake's sword was definitively different from those typically seen in the Scandinavian region. Interesting to see that it turns out to be an important observation, especially when it comes to exploring Snake's own background. Yes, we never learned anything about who he is or where he came from, so... why not? And of course, the thing we've been waiting for. Thorfinn's conundrum: uphold his pacifist values, or embrace violence once again? Or is there a third option? |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2885 |
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#17
So concludes the Gardar arc, and it is indeed a Greek Tragedy which kickstarts the second half of this adaptation. For the action junkies, the duel between Thorfinn and Snake should be adequate, as the latter shows off the skills he learnt with his Arabian sword when he served as part of the Varangian Guard in Constantinople. It wasn't a fair fight to begin with, since Thorfinn does not have his daggers from his mercenary days and his objective was not to kill Snake but to incapacitate him and prevent him from killing Gardar. Ultimately Thorfinn did not succeed, but the dying have the strength of cornered rats and this bought enough time for Arnheid to have a last goodbye with her husband. Gardar's hallucination reminds me of the Russell Crowe scenes in Gladiator when he's at death's door and thinking of his family. Much of the episode actually focuses on this, as Gardar's desire to do good for his son is inadvertently the cause of much of his family's tragedy. He probably realised it at the end, with that final memory of the decision to go to battle for the iron. Death may have released him from his torment, but his wife, Thorfinn and Einar are going to bear the consequences for aiding in his escape. The farm rules are strict, so it looks like Thorfinn and Einar are going to lose their offer for freedom at the very least. Ordinarily, that would be a huge setback for the pair but Canute's attempted expropriation is ironically going to be their opportunity as Ketil needs all the manpower he can muster to defend his holdings and he cannot afford to maim or kill slaves he desperately needs for the upcoming defence. Did Snake die? If he did, the defence of the farm is almost certainly a lost cause. As an ex-Varangian he of all people should know what Ketil is up against if he's still alive to be briefed on the situation. If he has survived and is none the worse for his choking, he'll be essential to determining how much of a fight Ketil and company can put up against a royal punitive expedition backed up by Jomsvikings mercenaries. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23858 |
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Season 2, Episode 17
Quite a sad episode, imo. Pretty much a textbook example of what the drive for "honor and wealth" can bring you. A lesson that King Canute is probably going to learn, as well. Thanks to the preview for next week, we know that Einar and Thorfinn are tied up, in preparation for whatever punishment will be meted out. I wonder what Arhheid's fate will be? I also wonder if Snake was aware that Thorfinn tried to intercede on his behalf or that Arnheid saved his life. It's entirely possible he had blacked out by that point. If he is aware, I wonder if that will have a mitigating impact on the punishments. And of course the true poop-storm is a'comin'... Now, I'm really curious about Snake and his men's background. What did they do that requires them to use fake names? Hmmm.... |
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ACｘS
Posts: 903 |
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17:
I'm actually amazed by the direction of this season, which runs completely counter to what the previous season did. The previous season was more of a "war-action" genre where we witness the war itself with strategizing on the side. This season is a lot more "war-drama" and we see more of war's aftermath and the not-so-glorious side of all the killing that comes with it. It's clearly more pacifistic with the tone, and the overarching message is how maybe, just maybe, the promise of Valhalla isn't what everyone wanted back then. Gardar not surviving isn't surprising, but I have to applaud how his and Arnheid's story is presented. It's been the greatest part of the season so far, and the best in the Vinland Saga imho. The most poignant part is how Arnheid lied that Hjalti was safe just to placate Gardar and put him at peace. Her having to bear the truth was the most tragic part of it all. And of course, quite conveniently, Ketil and Co. are back right after all the shit has gone down. Leif has finally found Thorfinn, who is in trouble with Einar for helping Arnheid try to escape, and Canute apparently hasn't even arrived yet.
I imagine Snake in particular did something dishonorable and ran away. The specifics of his actions may be trivial, but his kind of story fits perfect into the overall theme of forgiveness and second chances. Although I must admit, if he is allegedly from the Middle East, he must have wanted to be as far from it as Scandinavia. I wonder what he must have done too. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2885 |
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Members from the Varangian Guard were hired exclusively from the ranks of Norsemen and Anglo-Saxons. Snake is unusual in his choice of an Arabian scimitar as a weapon, but to outright say he's Arabian because of his choice of weapon is a gross generalization. |
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ACｘS
Posts: 903 |
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You're right, my bad. His background being a mystery remains to be the crux of Snake's character, and we are basing purely from his weapon of choice. I have to correct myself that maybe he is from "around here" and he's just equipped with an unusual scimitar. Let's hope the show explores his story. |
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