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Forum - View topicREVIEW: Umineko When They Cry Episode 6: Dawn of the Golden Witch Volume 2 GN 14
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Double Mangekyo
 Posts: 179 |
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A peeve of the reviewer, I'm sure, but how exactly are Zepar and Furfur annoying?
They conduct themselves in a very theatrical manner as masters of ceremony. I found them to be quite likeable, even back in the original VN. I'd say the "lovers' trial" is just as important as any other part of ep.6 . I did think "Get on with it already." a few times... but that feeling mainly stemmed from me already having read the source material. I'm just needlessly retreading old ground, unlike a new reader. But yeah, I guess it's really not that exciting story-wise (for ep.6 anyway)... To begin with, the trial itself is one big side-mystery. I'm sure there's a single question shared by anyone who read this episode: spoiler[Why is it that only one of the three couples can find happiness?] |
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danpmss
 Posts: 768 |
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Those are indeed some pretty ignorable negative points about the presentation of the elements in this whole manga adaptation (the pacing thing is nothing compared to my personal viewing of how the material was handled in comparison to the original). I must say however that, besides EP 1 and 2, the other's were actually overall very faithful in the best way they could (Ryukishi personally handled the storyboards from the second half of EP3 up to the very end of EP8, which is also why there is more attention to detail and more volumes from that point on... crazy workaholic this author here is, no joke). The only problem is that there are some things in the storytelling as a whole that just doesn't work in manga format, with the exception maybe of EP5, EP7 and EP8 (which were the best adapted volumes... besides making some stuff explicit unlike the VN, which kinda misses the whole point of the reader solving the mystery by himself, as all of the info is there to be re-read and found... in the VN at least, the manga even has one huge plothole in the very first twilight of EP1). That said, I kinda understand most of the criticism the manga adaptation is receiving here so far, and that's why I rather recommend the visual novel instead. Like, just how would they adapt the plethora of plot devices and smart foreshadowing and symbolism present in the narrative per se, in other medium? Unless the whole manga was narrated just like that, it's kinda impossible to do so. The unreliable narrative is handled in such a genius way that it's just a shame to see it completely ommited from the manga. And back being specific to this volume in question however, regarding all of the previously mentioned flaws in the manga transition, it was a very good adaptation besides all of the fanservice (which is what kinda turned me off the most about the EP 6 manga... and THANK GOD they left those "Recap" moments as extras, because they were supposed to be at the beginning of each chapter, causing a quite major mood whiplash overall). Seriously, spoiler[ we don't freaking need any more bad incest jokes in Umineko, of all things, and I say this as someone who considers this to be the best VN and mystery story out there. We already have two very short bad canon moments with Battler & Maria at the beginning of EP1 and at the end of EP2 + Tsubasa fandisk with the "Aunt" stuff referring to of course, this Episode], |
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Mr. Dent
 Posts: 78 |
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Im so glad you've continued Umineko! I always love reading your reviews.
As for the Love Trials- they're focused on for good reason, I think. You'll see next volume, but the part I always felt seemed tacked on and unnecessary was the two Beatos though. I totally understand what they represent together and the message Ryukishi was trying to convey, but their plot really doesn't seem to go anywhere. |
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Tanteikingdomkey
 Posts: 2346 |
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SAME HERE Glad to see these reviews continue on. I personally disagree with you on the two beatos but that is because of my own personal ideas of who the "culprit(s)" are |
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Mr. Dent
Posts: 78 |
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spoiler[Even if you don't believe the solution put forth in the game and the manga, you should at least be able to agree that it's very wonky how the Elder Beato just becomes irrelevant. She doesn't die, she doesn't become one with Chick Beato, she just... stops being relevant once Chick Beato solves the Logic Error. There's not even like a throwaway line or anything to reassure readers she did indeed join with Chick Beato!] |
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ThatGuyWhoLikesThings
Posts: 1010 |
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Yes, the love trial, specifically the mechanics of it and the meaning behind them, are a critical component of the story, some would argue moreso than the actual witch's game going on in the same arc, although I would also argue the witch's game is more entertaining.
Erika's cold dismissal of Natsuhi's love for Krauss in favor of all the so-called "evidence" in EP5 suddenly takes on a new meaning with the information we learned about her here, and serves as an explanation why she hates magic and obfuscation of the truth. This is also a partial explanation why she's so enamored with Bernkastel despite Bern's treatment of her, given it's never stated explicitly why. Erika was always bitter and frustrated that she could never get that guaranteed truth as a human, and Bern managed to give her exactly that in the form of red truth. Dlanor x Erika otp btw. |
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maximilianjenus
Posts: 2867 |
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and I am glad the umineko reviews are back, tho there's only one omnibus left of hapinnes; once the next arc starts; let0s just say I can't wait for the reviews to get to them.
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grooven
Posts: 1424 Location: Canada |
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Just yesterday I was wondering when we would get the next review
 Thank you!
Having played the game, I found where Erika appeared is where the story starts to drag a bit. Knowing what I know about the ending, there's just way too much happening in the Chiru arcs. It feels like Ryukishi was obligated to add new characters every arc and not all of them feel like like they are needed to prove a point in the story. It's like he was forced to make eight arcs when it could've been less. This only enforces that he needed an editor. I did enjoy the love trial, but when spoiler[Clair] is introduced it starts to get over complicated. Too much is happening at this point where it feels bloated. At first didn't get the point of Zepar and Furfur when I initially read about them (I also get how they are annoying with the way they speak.) But soon I understood why they were there, I only wished the names and designs weren't so ridiculous. |
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Mr. Dent
Posts: 78 |
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If you mean that the next two arcs are much more depressing- spoiler[Yes, I very much agree, although that's supposed to be a surprise until the Episode 7 Tea Party.] I can't wait until she gets to the Confession of the Golden Witch miniarc- to fans of the series, those chapters have an enormous gravity and pathos to them that in afraid may be lost on a first-time reader. |
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danpmss
Posts: 768 |
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He is his own editor, a self publisher doujin circle writer (besides his brother being the one messing with part of the sound synchronization and after effects before the releases), and he wrote the equivalent of 600+ pages of Episode 6 in only 2 months (just before he would release at Comiket that year) after he took a break because his best friend died. And believe me, everything has lots of importance. Even a minor character such as Beatrice the Elder. Ryukishi isn't obliged by anyone to write anything he want (besides making the game easier for people to understand, after Episode 2 received a backlash for being too cryptic, which made him divide the overall content of Episode 3 "Land of the Golden Witch" into the actual EP3, 4 and 5 we now have). The name of his circle is 07th Expansion, and his big titles (the When They Cry series) always are a game with 7 expansions. He also explained he prepare all of the content and characters beforehand while playing with them in different situations while analysing which would be the best way to present and carry on the mystery and clues.
spoiler[Clair] only appears as spoiler[a theatrical storyteller], in EP7, and that Episode is by far the most straight to the point Umineko ever was with any story element, to the point of becoming literally a spoiler[ diary of a very problematic person being read out loud ] (in fact, most of the answers for the whole thing are given during EP7). I don't understand your point about being over-complicated at all. The only cryptic part in EP7 in fact was spoiler[ Willard single-handedly solving all of Umineko thus far while confronting Clair at the very end, and that's just because he used metaphors to answer her enigmas]. |
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grooven
Posts: 1424 Location: Canada |
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In all honesty, it took me a few years to complete the game (which had been completed at the time) around the Chiru arc because it was dragging for me. I did enjoy EP7 the most which gave the biggest pay off. But by the end and looking back there is so much text that could've been pared-down. |
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maximilianjenus
Posts: 2867 |
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yes, it's pretty heavy, even more so in the manga, I have a friend in a similar situation, but the way the manga is, I ended up unreccomending it because it would be too heavy for her. The manga is my favorite media; even if it lacks the very important sound it has the superior pacing, as the novel suffers heavily from pacing issues. Last edited by maximilianjenus on Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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danpmss
Posts: 768 |
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In my honest opinion, it isn't overdone at all, in a book perspective (in a game, maybe, but this is far from being a game). To each their own, as you well said, but to me, this was actually pretty fast paced overall, it's just that the infodump was abundant during the whole thing. You can't really trim Umineko specially because there's a lot of foreshadowing in the text itself (for a very good meta reason, spoiler[ EP8 final moments just delivers perfectly why is that] ). Again, the discourse changes when we are talking about the manga adaptation (it just doesn't work in the same way). To be something overdone, you might want to mention scenery porn novels as one primary example, like Les Miserables (Hugo describing a freaking wall for 3 pages) or actually over-descriptive novels overall (Mahouka detailing "scientifically" the very act of walking or opening a juice can, or Araragi describing some random panties for almost 2 pages). Umineko sometimes recap previous info, but never overstays its welcome when introducing new elements. Also, even repeated dialogue is carefully made at least slightly different than the previous Episode's lines (especially because there's a very good reason for doing exactly that). Also, Ryukishi wanted only a couple of people to know about the story's true structure, and I'm sure as hell he wouldn't count on a bunch of editors who would most likely leak info considering just how much people were getting absurdly curious about the solution, which is even a plot device mirroring the reality in the actual VN at some point. He is a very competent editor for his own story, and wrote the way it should have been written to make sense in the meta as well. It IS a heavy reading, and it's absurdly complex no doubt, I dropped it myself 3 times when I first read, but I wouldn't go as far as to say the difficulty only gets higher and higher. In fact, its peak was between Half of EP4 up to almost Half of EP 6 (and from them on, it becomes fairly simpler and easy to follow. Concluding, while it may vary from person to person, I would highly recommend re-reading the Visual Novel at least once more. Preferably with the updated translation or in pure japanese if possible. There are many hints and important stuff in scenes I also first thought to be redundant and skippable (spoiler[ to think even something as silly and ridiculous as an attempt of breast foundling a character would actually have such a tease that could literally reveal the whole mystery right there, and that the own writer and person whose breasts would be touched probably wrote that up herself in an actually coherent attempt to being exposed it's probably one of the most unexpected ones ]). |
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Princess_Irene
ANN Reviewer
 Posts: 2612 Location: The castle beyond the Goblin City |
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Okay, so clearly I underestimated the importance of the Love Trial.
  I'll keep that in mind heading into the next omnibus, which I'm planning for next week.
It is my own pet peeve about Zorbar and Furfur - I find Ryukishi07's reliance on their style of over-the-top theatrics really irritating and often at odds with his apparent use of golden age mystery tropes. That may be on purpose, but it doesn't work for me. I have to agree that an editor is a valuable asset for a writer, and it does show at times that there wasn't originally one for this series. As both a fiction and a nonfiction writer, I (usually!) like have an editor - it reins me in or helps me to see where I could improve. Plus it stops me from using words like "crepuscular" or "nacreous" when I really shouldn't.
I do want to read the original VN, but now I think I'll wait until I finish the manga. I don't want to mess up my perspective at this point! |
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maximilianjenus
Posts: 2867 |
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agreed, is episode 04-06 when it becomes harder to read because how overtexted it is; that's hardly a valid complain outside of those episodes. afaik, there was one point of time when only sayaka ohara and ryukishi's brother knew the solution, while not even the aniem director did. |
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