Forum - View topicTokyopop Initial D thoughts...
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10426 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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I'm not going to jump on you like Cookie did, but I would like to point out that 1) Legally speaking fansubbing is piracy 2) if fansubbers keep something available after it has been licensed they are considrered bootlegers by the fansub community. Now, when it comes to a title that has been edited to a point that fans don't want the legit release and prefer to seek out fansubs/bootlegs... that's a touchy issue. It's a bit like civil disobedience... but it isn't. Civil disobedience doesn't harm individual companies. I don't advocate what you are suggesting. If a Manga (or anime) has been released edited in North America and you want a pure & unadultered version I recommend you purchase a legitimate import and seek out a translation. That way you are: 1) showing your disaproval of the edited product by boycotting it 2) Obtaining yourself your very own high quality copy of the original 3) Not breaking the law or supporting a bootleg operation. Perhaps someone who is a regular of the Manga Project IRC channel should suggest that, in the case of an title that has been edited, they keep only the scripts and notably edited pages available after a title has been released. Continuing to distribute the scans is paramount to bootlegging. |
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YF19EX
Posts: 3 |
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Over the years I have developed a moderate relationship that is somewhat hardcore otaku and compromising fanboy. We could go into the large discussion in the difference between the two sides but here is my take on this.
First I am an Initial D fan! Hell I love the series and don't anyone go associate me with rice hondas. My tastes are in high preformance cars like the GTR series and RX-7s of the world. Hell I right now I am trying to figure out a decision of what car I want to by in the comming year: A WRX or A Lancer EVO. I think cars are a somewhat universal thing be it Asia, Europe, US etc. and those who cannot understand that may not necessaraly not understand Initial D but it goes a long way in liking it. When I first heard and Saw Tokyo Pop's anouncement about the editing of the Manga I was furious! (No Pun intended) Most of the time most mangas have stayed true to there form or there was an edited version for the hardcore fans. I said to myself, my god if they can do this to the manga then the TV will surely be ruined. Which brings me to TV US TV: This the compromising part of being a anime fan. Lets face it, the general audience has not accepted anime in its full form yet. Would I like to see anime in its uncut, subbed original Japanese voices sometime on US tv? Hell ya! But you have to look at the big picture, this is only one battle in a war that all of the long time anime fans have been fighting for. We finaly got our wish: Anime on television but it was only in part. Its still edited, changed etc. but thats part of the corporate culture. Only when the fans start spreading and demanding the original form will it change. Hell I am as idealistic as any otaku. I may not be up there with Fred Patton but I still remember when Robotech reigned, Anime was hard to come by and Fansubs took months to release, not days like to day. As fans its still a nich market with hardcore fans dwindeling and new fanboys and girls having to learn all the lessons in appreciating its original form. So I still want to see the Ideal form come through someday. I believe it will happen. Unfortunatly not today. (On US TV at least) DVD Video: Ok this is where I show the hardcore side. If there is going to be and edited there should be two version with an unedited version. Like the Manga this is a more selected area where people can buy what they want and so there should be no excuse for editing the DVD. Examples like Sailor Moon and Card Captor Sakura are best because sure they cut the crap out of the TV releases but then there came the uncut versions. If there is any hope for Intial D to stay original the DVD release is the last hope. (Or until tokyo pop finds themselves in a more screwed up position or they finaly listen to us) This series is like any other anime. To the hardcore fans we have to advocte the spreading of the original art. So what if it was changed in Japan before to "its" audience. What changes they did for their audience does not matter here. What matters in the US is the release of that changed material in the form it was presented in. The Initial D creators went to great lengths in the creation of this work. They collected car Sounds form the Drift Kings special 86 (or Hachi Roku if you prefer) and other cars in the series. They studied the cars tech specs so that they could be presented in the anime properly. The Eurobeat music was especialy chosen to suit a driving mood which it does quite nicely. (I should know, I drive to It all the time.) So all of this should be preserved as it is, the original presentation of ideas at the Japanese people saw it. This is again like any anime that deserves a fair and original showing (Yes I include DBZ and Sailor Moon in this mix as well) :D |
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ZanLong
Posts: 12 |
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I for one am upset about the lack of respect that amine/manga gets over here by the mainstream. If Star Wars, Star Trek, and any number of US show where treated oversea the way Initial D is being treated there would be a uproar that you would not believe. here as well as over there.
In the US, if it does not fit in our "little box", We try to make it fit in that "little box". Someone here talked about anime in the mid-80's. Back then, yes, you had to make do with what came out. In the 90's, anime/manga came into it own. Now Cartoon Network is showing anime without changing any of the names, or story. Most of the Gundam shows are left intact, G is the only one that has the Moble Suits names changed, but the names will not be changened for the DVD. Only the TV version. Outlaw Star was left alone, as was Cowboy Bebop. Tenchi was cut for time, but they did a good job at keeping the story intact. For the most part we are far from "little boxs" As for manga, the only manga, to my knowlge, that had the names changed was Venus Wars. Yoshikazu Yasuhiko recommended that the main characters name be changed from Hiro to Ken, and if you do not believe me, In issue 12 of the Venus Wars manga, Toren Smith did a 3 page explainsion on how most manga comes to the US, and he tell this fact in there. In Ceres, in the burlb that she does in all of her manga, Yu Watase say she gave Viz the right to change the J-pop culture references to something that US readers would recognize. On his own website, Yukito Kishiro calls GUNNM ( the real name of the manga) by the US name "Battle Angel Alita", and calls Gally, at times, by the US name Alita. He gave Viz the right to change the title, and the name of Gally. Did Tokypop get input as to if they could change the names in Initial D. No, they did not. They did not even talk with the creator of the work. Viz and Studio Proteus, in the past, have asked, or gotten input. Tokopop did not. And befor any one trys to defend Tokypop. Let me remind every one here about Mixxzine, the frist thing Tokyopop did, in 97. The frist year was great. It was what it said it was, A manga anthology. Then Stuart Levy took over as Editor-in-Chief of Mixxzine, and started focusing on pop culture then on manga. He was trying to get a mainstream crowd and Mixxzine died some time after. Same thing here with Initial D. Levy is trying to get a mainstream crowd and has told the manga/anime fans to take a hike. He is trying to fit Initial D into a "little box" for the US. All we want is a 100% manga of Initial D. If he wants a mainstream version, ok, fine. Just do a 100% manga version as well. |
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HazelAsher
 Posts: 48 Location: Bay Area, California |
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Well, from a magical fangirls point of view, I think Initial D is awesome. I know my boyfriend will just buy the Japanese stuff anyways (which seems to be the only thing all of you agree on =P). I would probably become angry if they decided to *alter* the music--I know "Burning Desire" sounds pretty...yeah but with all that rap on tv, who knows?
 The only thing I find silly about all of this is that a lot of anime fans that find Initial D rather lame and much like Fast and the Furious, don't know (and probably don't care) too much about racing. I'm just glad Takumi doesn't have to use freakin' NOS to go fast--he's got the skill to manage on his own.
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Tempest
I Run this place. ANN Publisher Posts: 10426 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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They will alter the music for the TV release. While they haven't stated as much, they have confirmed the possibility, and at AX they played the English music (which wasn't that bad, except for the fact that it was 30 seconbds of decent music repeated for 3 minutes). The Japanese track on the DVD will be completely unedited as they've said... so the original music will be available on the DVD. |
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GATSU
Posts: 15348 |
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Zan: "If Star Wars, Star Trek, and any number of US show where treated oversea the way Initial D is being treated there would be a uproar that you would not believe. here as well as over there."
Um, when the first Star Wars and Star Trek films come out, they were edited, either due to a lack of a special effects or because of studio interference. And even as long as the first LOTR movie is, it still had 30-40 minutes cut out for time. And if you're going for a more recent example, Arjuna was apparently edited for time in Japan. So it's not always some evil conspiracy. "In the US, if it does not fit in our "little box", We try to make it fit in that "little box"." Um, the Japanese do that too. Even if you saw the Japanese Kite, it would still have digital shading of the genitals. You'd have to get the German dvd to see it completely uncut. "Someone here talked about anime in the mid-80's. Back then, yes, you had to make do with what came out." "In the 90's, anime/manga came into it own." Not really. It was until 2 years ago that anime outside of Pokemon was considered marketable. "Now Cartoon Network is showing anime without changing any of the names, or story." "On his own website, Yukito Kishiro calls GUNNM ( the real name of the manga) by the US name "Battle Angel Alita", and calls Gally, at times, by the US name Alita. He gave Viz the right to change the title, and the name of Gally." Just cus he gave Viz that right doesn't mean he liked it. "Did Tokypop get input as to if they could change the names in Initial D. No, they did not. They did not even talk with the creator of the work." And you know that for a fact because...? "Stuart Levy took over as Editor-in-Chief of Mixxzine, and started focusing on pop culture then on manga. He was trying to get a mainstream crowd and Mixxzine died some time after." No, Mixxzine didn't die because it was too mainstream. Tokyopop just had other projects to deal with by then. "Same thing here with Initial D. Levy is trying to get a mainstream crowd and has told the manga/anime fans to take a hike." No, just the otaku, who should rightfully stop dragging the rest of us down. |
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LordByronius
ANN Columnist
 Posts: 861 Location: Philippe for America! He is five. |
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The thing that always bothers about these "THIS SHOW HAS BEEN RAPED OF IT'S DIGNITY BY AMERICAN CENSORS SEND YOUR MAIL-BOMBS" threads is that they are sure-fire troll-bait. Will any of these people post in ANY other thread on this board? No. Will they even read any of the replies? Probably not. So please, you're breathing up all of our oxygen. Go re-sign that online petition with another batch of made-up names, please. You're not accomplishing much here.
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Ataru
 Posts: 2306 Location: Missouri (Strikeman) |
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I like to call these, "I got an option that I sure other people won't like." Ref: Sub vs Dubs, Sega vs Nintendo vs Sony, etc. Like fish to a worm. Anyhoot, if you don't like US manga releases, go out to some Cons or shop around and get a nice imported version of it. Heck, you can go as far as telling you fellow anime nuts not to buy it. Then again, I buy DBZ tapes. 
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Hisoka
Posts: 3 Location: New York State |
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Well this is not really following what has been said. i don't have time to read all this...so here is my opinion, as an over-opinionated fangirl.
I love Initial D..and I was going to actually buy the manga..and the DVD's til this started. Unfortunately I also like things the way they should be..so now I won't be wasting my money on the manga..I can find better things from better companies. The funny thing is I have showed my cousins part of this series(fansubs), and they are preteens. I told one of them they were changing all the character names and he gave me this look that pretty much said "Are they stupid?" He's a very bright kid. I was just beginning to respect Tokyopop a little..thinking they might live up to their promises...alas now they have fallen right back into the hole. I'll still watch GTO, but I won't buy it..or anything else from them. I'll just rent what I want to see..and leave it at that. Why encourage Tokyopop by giving them my hard earned money...in this time, I think we can all handle a few Japanese names and sex scenes. Just put ratings on the Manga if necessary, don't cut them. I hate silly companies that think the fans will just buy it, no matter what they decide to do. I certainly won't be...and I was so looking forward to this...*sigh* Loosing customers is all they really seem to be doing with this.... |
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Case
Posts: 1016 |
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That's one major thing I fail to understand about all of this. I don't see why Tokyopop feels that it is necessary to change character names in this day in age. If we were talking about a series that was translated 10 years ago, then I might understand. But I don't see the need for it now. In a world where Jet Li, Jackie Chan, Chow Yun Fat, and Ang Lee are household names, how can Tokyopop be afraid that their potential readers will pass on their books or DVDs simply because they see names like Takumi or Natsuki? I mean, foreign films like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon get record breaking turnouts in theaters. Video stores all across the country have whole sections devoted exclusively to Japanese animation. Manga graphic novels are getting departments of their own away from American-made comics in book stores. Some retailers (Suncoast) have even begun to notice the ties between the two and have started to stock quantities of both. Geeky comic book shops is the last place many people think of to go looking for anime-related products nowadays. Is the modern American really as biased and ignorant as Tokyopop makes him seem? Or are they just conforming to a dated stereotype in an effort to widen their profit margins? I'm really not sure. It seems especially strange for a product which will probably inevitably be recognized as having Japanese origins by many members of its target audience: On one hand the manga, which will most likely be sold alongside other manga, with huge kana characters all over the cover; and on the other hand the anime, which will have dozens of Japanese names in the credits, will likely be aired alongside other well known animes, and will probably stand out as foreign for a number of unique reasons. (The fact that few, if any, of the cars are domestic models perhaps?) And both versions will certainly have Tokyopop's name plastered all over them. Seriously. Kids go crazy over Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and Dragonball Z, all of which make heavy use of uncommon names. (...For the United States.) Why is Tokyopop afraid that "Takumi" is going to scare people?
I can't speak for bakachild, but for myself I would have to disagree with that. Actually, I was impressed with Tokyopop's work without exception right up until this announcement. With their good prices, impressive assortment of big licenses, 100% Authentic promotions, and ventures into all three areas of anime-related multimedia (print, video, audio) there was nothing I saw to be worth complaining about. I bought the first Initial D graphic novel immediately after it streeted two months ago, and I really looked forward to getting my hands on the second volume. With this little development though... I dunno. I guess a feel a little bit cheated. I'm bothered by the fact that they're deciding to edit it after they have already released part of it unedited. I've seen what they can do when they stay true to the creator's intentions, and now they tell me that they're going to change it so they can try to impress people who don't appreciate the series as much as I do in the first place. I feel like I'm watching them throw what little reputation it has garnered so far onto a chopping block. I'm especially irritated by the fact that they have decided to edit the manga, since manga so often seems to be treated as the hardcore fan's escape from censorship. I thought that a basic understanding of Japanese culture (EG: tolerence for Japanese names) was necessary for a person to take interest in manga, and that people without that basic understanding spent their time reading books or American comics instead. Is that assumption wrong? Does Tokyopop really have that many readers who could be potentially turned off by foreign names? Again, I wish I knew. :-/
That's not an accurate comparison, I think. That's understandable in one sense, but you can't deny the fact that Dragon Ball and Gundam are legends of their time, even in Japan. That taken into account, "series like DBZ or Gundam" really aren't dime-a-dozen. Something like "Hand Maid May and Vandread" would be more accurate, I'd say.
Well said, brother. 
I don't mean to be rude, but... How do you know that for sure? They may not have said anything about it in their PR, but that doesn't necessarly mean they didn't ask. :-/
On TV perhaps, but I'm pretty sure that direct-to-video anime was already well rooted by that time. I know that the Suncoast video stores in my area have had anime sections since I started frequenting them, which had to be at least four years ago. And considering the fact that I live in suburban Iowa, where the pickings tend to be rather slim, I'd venture to guess that video anime was selling well long before that.
And posting off-topic to complain about it is sooo much better... 
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danbeck
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Well said sailormech...
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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Thanks, so in return....
If we rule out Robotech and all it's predecessors from this discussion, Akira debuted around 90-91? (at LATEST, in US) And most all the majors we've come to know and love (ADV, AnimEigo, Viz) all started releasing anime and came into their own in the 90s. It depends a GREAT deal on how one interprets the statement that anime was "considered marketable". Obviously anime was considered marketable long before the 90s, but I'd say the 90s was when anime was considered marketable in and of itself (unchanged, the original AnimEigo tagline was "The Best Anime You'll Ever READ", later changed to "Anime Your Way"  ).
Anime has gained acceptance since then and I'd agree that it's only within the last few years that it has gained WIDE "marketability" in the sense that it is expected to sell to more than it's own "fanbase". But anime was in your local video store (including the larger chains) in the mid 90s. |
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Cyrian
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I know this is off topic, but what did they do to Chobits and Love Hina? |
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ZanLong
Posts: 12 |
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GATSU wrote:
Um, when the first Star Wars and Star Trek films come out, they were edited, either due to a lack of a special effects or because of studio interference. And even as long as the first LOTR movie is, it still had 30-40 minutes cut out for time. And if you're going for a more recent example, Arjuna was apparently edited for time in Japan. So it's not always some evil conspiracy. What you are talking about is Post-Production. What I am talking about is Someone editing it after it had been out of a year or more with out the creators consent. Star Wars: SE and Star Trek TMP Director's Cut is different, Lucas had a big part in the Star Wars: SE. For Star Teck TMP Director's Cut, most of the same production crew was part of that. GATSU wrote Um, the Japanese do that too. Even if you saw the Japanese Kite, it would still have digital shading of the genitals. You'd have to get the German dvd to see it completely uncut. From the Tokyopop letter: Some of us insist on calling the car the ‘Hachi-Roku,' others call that insane and say that the only way to present the car to an American audience is as the ‘Eight-Six.' We talk to bigwig network execs who want all the kanji removed from the logo and the car, who want to change tofu delivery to pizza delivery, who are utterly mystified at our insistence on retaining the original Japanese sound effects and printing the manga right-to-left, and who want us to refer to Takumi as Jeffrey "because it would be easier to pronounce"! This is what I meant when I said US trying to fit things in "Little Boxes" The network execs they talked to wanted the kanji on the car and logo removed. They wanted to get rid of the tofu delivery, and lastly the network execs wanted Takumi refer to Jeffrey. Gatsu is talking about content, I am taking about cultural refrenses. sailormech wrote: In a world where Jet Li, Jackie Chan, Chow Yun Fat, and Ang Lee are household names, how can Tokyopop be afraid that their potential readers will pass on their books or DVDs simply because they see names like Takumi or Natsuki? I mean, foreign films like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon get record breaking turnouts in theaters. Video stores all across the country have whole sections devoted exclusively to Japanese animation. Manga graphic novels are getting departments of their own away from American-made comics in book stores. Some retailers (Suncoast) have even begun to notice the ties between the two and have started to stock quantities of both. Geeky comic book shops is the last place many people think of to go looking for anime-related products nowadays. Is the modern American really as biased and ignorant as Tokyopop makes him seem? Or are they just conforming to a dated stereotype in an effort to widen their profit margins? I'm really not sure. Seriously. Kids go crazy over Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and Dragonball Z, all of which make heavy use of uncommon names. (...For the United States.) Why is Tokyopop afraid that "Takumi" is going to scare people? This is where my main problem stems from. After Toyopop keeping most of the cultural refrenses, why did they have to change the names? There was no need to do this. What it comes down to is that the network execs do not like any cultural refrenses that are not American refrenses. And yes, I think that Tokypop is conforming to that "dated stereotype" to get a bigger profit margin, and I do not much care for that. |
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GATSU
Posts: 15348 |
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sailor: "I mean, foreign films like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon get record breaking turnouts in theaters."
CTHD was a fluke. Popular films like Amelie and Brotherhoods of the Wolf still haven't even grossed half of the take of CTHD. "Is the modern American really as biased and ignorant as Tokyopop makes him seem?" Um, the Japanese can be narrow-minded too. (Try watching Dead or Alive to find out how they treat Chinese, or try playing Mega Man Battle Network 2 to see how black people are depicted.) Hell, even Pedro in Excel Saga tends to be stereotypical. The argument I've heard is that the Japanese like to exaggerate all races in anime/manga, but they tend to do that for other cultures more than their own. Not that I won't stop watching anime/manga, and not that I don't recognize that it's kind of tough to depict minorities in a positive light when they only comprise 1% of the population. (Unless you count the indigenous people on certain islands...)But to say that your awareness of the world might somehow expand because you watch some anime is giving it too much credit. "Kids go crazy over Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and Dragonball Z, all of which make heavy use of uncommon names." Um, Star Wars is a remake of a Japanese film. And one of Lucas's original intentions was to have Toshiro Mifune play Obi Wan Kenobi. So this is an example of a Westernization of a Japanese film, and no one got offended. And most kids don't read LOTR. They just watch the movies. DBZ is about the fight scenes, not about the names. And no one even thought it would do well in the first place, because the original DB bombed in ratings. "I've seen what they can do when they stay true to the creator's intentions" As I said earlier, you really can't TELL what the creator's intentions are, because many times they're trying to sell their idea first, and sometimes they have to pander to appeal to the widest possible audience. "I'm especially irritated by the fact that they have decided to edit the manga, since manga so often seems to be treated as the hardcore fan's escape from censorship." As I ALSO said earlier, manga is still censored in Japan. You can not see genitals, and a violent series like Ichi the Killer is banned in certain prefects of the country. "I thought that a basic understanding of Japanese culture (EG: tolerence for Japanese names) " Since when is that a basic understanding of Japanese culture? They make fun of their own names in anime. "and that people without that basic understanding spent their time reading books or American comics instead." Um, you do know that comics like X Men introduce people of different cultural backgrounds besides Europeans right? (For example, Shi. Or Storm.) "but you can't deny the fact that Dragon Ball and Gundam are legends of their time, even in Japan. " Yes I can. They're there to sell toys, plain and simple. Does that mean I might like some of them? Yes, but I don't pretend that they're deeper than that. "On TV perhaps, but I'm pretty sure that direct-to-video anime was already well rooted by that time." Not really. DVD was still relatively new, and it wasn't until the transition from vhs to dvd that studios started making bank. "I know that the Suncoast video stores in my area have had anime sections since I started frequenting them, which had to be at least four years ago." That doesn't mean they were as successful back then. "And considering the fact that I live in suburban Iowa, where the pickings tend to be rather slim, I'd venture to guess that video anime was selling well long before that." Um no it was not. It was selling well for its fanbase. Despite the success of Manga anime like Ninja Scroll and GITS, anime was still an underground phenomenon. Try going to high school and being an anime fan 8 years ago. You'd have been ostracized in a second. (I know I was.) Zan: "The network execs they talked to wanted the kanji on the car and logo removed." And? I've seen worse edits than kanji removed. "They wanted to get rid of the tofu delivery" Is it even necessary to the story? "and lastly the network execs wanted Takumi refer to Jeffrey. Gatsu is talking about content, I am taking about cultural refrenses." Well it didn't happen, and the names are just short versions of their Japanese originals, so I think that's a pretty good deal. "But what about the sex in vol. 8+9?!", you might ask. Is Initial D about sex or cars? "What it comes down to is that the network execs do not like any cultural refrenses that are not American refrenses." Um, some of the names are still in Japanese. I'm sure the real reason they shortened the names was to have something catchier. |
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