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I think the oldest Isekai I've watched is Aura Battler Dunbine. Aura Battler Dunbine certainly involves isekai the concept, but its genre is plainly mecha. I don't think you could reasonably say Isekai was its genre. Thats true for a lot of the older shows listed.

Whereas Sword Art Online (which I would consider Isekai, even if the world is virtual) or stuff like last seasons Banished from the Hero's Party are all clearly, to me, in the same "genre space" as the current wave of isekai shows regardless of if anyone has experienced isekai- certainly much more so than most 90s or earlier shows involving an isekai character.

LitRPG as someone has said, or NarouRPG as the case really is here, is probably a more accurate moniker. Isekai is a device used in most of these, but I don't think its really core to the JRPG world with wish fulfillment elements. Indeed, even in some, strictly speaking, isekai shows (say, faraway paladin) the isekai element is fairly irrelevant.

Of course, I'm sure this is subjective. Genres are constructs rather than objective facts.

Has anyone else here watched Kakuriyo? And would anyone else like to see more shoujo isekai manga (both older and modern) animated?

Eilavel wrote:

I think the oldest Isekai I've watched is Aura Battler Dunbine. Aura Battler Dunbine certainly involves isekai the concept, but its genre is plainly mecha. I don't think you could reasonably say Isekai was its genre. Thats true for a lot of the older shows listed.

Dunbine is an interesting example, in that it being an Isekai is far more important to it's plot and story than most modern Isekai but it also has a lot of the basic elements of them, i mean the main character is (simplifying somewhat) hero summoned to another world and gains cheat powers. The key distinction is that it lacks the wish fulfillment side of it, as being a Tomino story absolutely nobody is enjoying anything.

Saeryen wrote:

Has anyone else here watched Kakuriyo? And would anyone else like to see more shoujo isekai manga (both older and modern) animated?

I had to check, but yes i watched and enjoyed Kakuriyo, in my head I was getting in mixed up with Konohana Kitan. Which is indicative of a different problem, I think of it as "youkai" not "isekai".

I'm an anime main so can't speak for manga, but unfortunately the main examples of "shoujo isekai" that come to mind are ironically ones I bounced off of, Harukanaru Toki no Naka de and Fushigi Yuugi have been on my "you should get round to finishing this" list for actual decades at this point.

As you said before "shoujo isekai" probably gets overlooked in the discussion but more because "isekai" as well, a baggage laden pejorative, is aimed squarely at the modern shounen/seinen side of things. Whilst rummaging i got reminded that The Saint’s Magic Power is Omnipotent is in fact a Narou story and it shows, it an isekai with cheat powers and harems but by not being utterly emotionally vapid it gets a pass.

On the note of which are there any shoujo stories which have the RPG elements? I honestly can't think of any, though that's likely because in japan "Games are for Boys" is still pretty well entrenched.

Terraziel wrote:

On the note of which are there any shoujo stories which have the RPG elements? I honestly can't think of any, though that's likely because in japan "Games are for Boys" is still pretty well entrenched.

The go to example would be the old school classic Magic Knight Rayearth from CLAMP which starts off as a lighthearted JRPG fantasy adventure story with a mix of magical girl and mecha elements but becomes more intense at the end of the first season and season two leans more heavily into the mecha aspect. The first season though is very heavy on the JRPG elements and has the characters gaining spells through powering up and they also level up their armor and weapons. It's generally well regarded as one of the best shojo isekai and there's also a SEGA Saturn RPG tie in game which is also well regarded and it's a hard to buy item with collectors.

Eilavel wrote:

[...]
LitRPG as someone has said, or NarouRPG as the case really is here, is probably a more accurate moniker. Isekai is a device used in most of these, but I don't think its really core to the JRPG world with wish fulfillment elements. Indeed, even in some, strictly speaking, isekai shows (say, faraway paladin) the isekai element is fairly irrelevant.

Of course, I'm sure this is subjective. Genres are constructs rather than objective facts.

I vote Narou RPG for the best description. Focusing on isekai led to that awful, horrible term "native isekai" for not-isekai Narou stories, which is dumb and removes the whole point of calling it isekai. When you start calling Rayerth as not-isekai, but fantasy story with OP Gary Stu as isekai because it reminds you of one, you should reevaluate all your life choices.

The four most common Narou story-types are isekai (usually loser virgin, in new world gets cheat skill), kicked out from party (loser, but gets OP cheat skill and starts winning), reborn way later (usually not loser in previous life, starts as child so people think "weakling", new to the world like in isekai, retains OP cheat skill) and villainess (knows the future story, sometimes time rewind/premonition/etc used instead of isekai). Villainess usually don't use RPG cheat skill (with exceptions like last season's lvl 99 girl EDIT: my bad, she grinded it), but the knowledge of the future as cheat skill, so they're often less gamified, though some of them grind levels to get OP to avoid doom, which at least is better then getting it for free. RPG stats are probably common because it's easy way to show how OP your MC is, and pseudo-medieval fantasy game setting allow to skimp on world-building.

There are also Narou school romances/romcoms, but their most common fault is turning the love interest into Mary Sue, instead of the guy. One of them had the left-by-parents-with-debt-to-yakuza unlucky MC (also common theme) saved (by being bought by her) by insanely rich girl that, I kid you not, was voted as the most beautiful high-schooler in Japan. Yes, the whole country. She had also top grades of course. And I forgot about edgy revenge genre, that makes it six I guess? but they're not as popular, Redo didn't got that many views.

Saeryen wrote:

Has anyone else here watched Kakuriyo? And would anyone else like to see more shoujo isekai manga (both older and modern) animated?

I watched some of it, and plan to finish it one day, but I think it's one of the cases of Narou story avoiding usual tropes and being actual, traditional fantasy romance story, like Apothecary was more traditional court drama with romance despite being from Narou, and like Rayearth was IMHO more traditional story compared to Narou isekai due to having trio of main characters, something very unusual for Narou stories, due to so many of them being wish fulfillment.

"Isekai villainess" is the Narou genre that seems most likely to have shoujo-like stories, and while many of them are too similar and have problem with too-perfect MC (it's Narou after all), they at least are usually less obsessed with game stats, and avoid slave harems - there is sometimes romance story with MC's one handsome slave, but tends to be more in style of "lady and stable-boy" traditional romances, I think. Most of the time it's more traditional harem romance with lots of hot noble boys and political intrigue mixed into it, as well as personal development, and sometimes it can be quite good, like Omnipotent Saint that Terraziel just mentioned.

ANN_Lynzee wrote:

It would just be nice to contain those conversations in either the episode review thread or the series' discussion thread as much as possible so folks can talk about other shows without it dominating the discussion everywhere.

Then, I don't understand why my post was removed from EP. REVIEW: Mushoku Tensei: Jobless Reincarnation II. I tried to follow the guidelines...

a_Bear_in_Bearcave wrote:

Saeryen wrote:

Has anyone else here watched Kakuriyo? And would anyone else like to see more shoujo isekai manga (both older and modern) animated?

I watched some of it, and plan to finish it one day, but I think it's one of the cases of Narou story avoiding usual tropes and being actual, traditional fantasy romance story, like Apothecary was more traditional court drama with romance despite being from Narou, and like Rayearth was IMHO more traditional story compared to Narou isekai due to having trio of main characters, something very unusual for Narou stories, due to so many of them being wish fulfillment.

That's because Kakuriyo isn't a Narou series. It didn't even start out as a web novel, it was published in book form from the start (which I'm starting to realize is becoming less common these days due to how much anime has been adapted from light novels that got their start on Narou).

Incidentally, The Apothecary Diaries is one of the few anime based on light novels that I've actually enjoyed enough to want to read the source material, probably because it's so different from other Narou series with anime adaptations.

I’m glad others have seen Kakuriyo. And I agree that using “isekai” to describe the LitRPG stuff isn’t helpful, as there are several that aren’t really isekai.

Last edited by Top Gun on Sat Apr 20, 2024 10:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

Key wrote:

Escaflowne is unquestionably isekai, and no amount of mincing about semantics gets around that. Now, if you want to classify it as "old-school isekai" to make a distinction between titles like it, Magic Knight Rayearth, and The Twelve Kingdoms and the Narou-powered style/content trends that have dominated the genre over the last several years, I'm fine with that.

Really, the only problem here is that some have attached a lot of baggage to the term "isekai" based on prevalent recent themes and story elements. But that doesn't change what it is as a genre.

I understand your point, but I think you're ignoring the fact that word usage can and does evolve. By the literal definition of "character gets transported to another world," the series you mentioned would all fit, and you could even extend it to classic works of Western literature like Alice in Wonderland or Narnia. But if a random anime fan today says "I like/hate isekai series," they're clearly referring to one specific subgenre, the Narou and Narou-inspired works that have dominated the conversation over the past several years. I don't know if the term "isekai" was commonly used in Japan to refer to those older series when they were new, but it certainly wasn't one that English-speaking audiences were familiar with, at least not that I was ever exposed to. It was adopted much more recently to refer to this new glut of a specific type of series. I think that's why so many of us bristle at its retroactive application to older works, because using it that way is more apt to cause confusion than anything else.

And speaking more broadly, I think that there's very little literary connection between those older works and what gets labeled as "isekai" today. For me, the clear distinguishing factor is how the protagonist interacts with the new world they find themselves in, as well as their feelings towards their original world. In those older works, which I think in the literary sense would tend to fall under "portal fantasies," the new world was frequently a harsh place full of dangers, and the protagonist would desire to return to their home, and would often actively try to do so. Hitomi in Escaflowne is thrown straight into a war between nations, and she struggles to deal with her newfound abilities there (and indeed later on spoiler[she actively wishes to return to Earth because she feels overwhelmed by what's happening]). Kagome in Inuyasha finds a feudal era chock-full of demons trying to kill her, and early on she successfully manages to travel back through the well to her own time. Yoko from Twelve Kingdoms is put through an absolute wringer early on, and even after spoiler[she becomes queen] she often feels very out-of-place. And in all of these cases, our world remains important to the characters: we get glimpses of Hitomi's mother and friends back on Earth, and Kagome's time-hopping becomes a key element in the story (and the source of many filler episode shenanigans). Twelve Kingdoms is maybe the most interesting choice: the anime adaptation added in the character of Sugimoto, who almost resembled a modern isekai protagonist, but she was portrayed in a negative light because her actions put both herself and her friends in grave danger. In the end spoiler[she realized how wrong her actions were and willingly agreed to return to our world].

Now contrast this with a modern isekai series. The majority of them feature a total sad-sack loser of a protagonist who hates their original life and actively embraces their new existence after their encounter with Truck-kun. (The fact that most of them feature this element of death and reincarnation, instead of physical travel, also sets them apart from traditional portal fantasies.) Once in their new life, they find that some mundane aspect of their personality from their old life has magically given them super-special awesome abilities, which depressingly often is nothing more than "I used to play a lot of JRPGs." This allows them to live out a total wish-fulfillment fantasy, and they completely embrace their new life, with their original one usually being no more than a distant afterthought. They're stories written for a very specific purpose and audience, and at least from an outsider's perspective, most seem to have little to no narrative depth beyond proclaiming a juvenile escapist message: "Don't worry if your life totally sucks, perhaps you too can be whisked away to a magical place where you're instantly good at everything you try!" As others have noted, it really does feel like the authors of these stories have little to no life or literary experience to draw on, or at the bare minimum that they're content with merely parroting whatever the popular flavor of the week is.

So yeah, that "baggage" doesn't come from nowhere. It's part and parcel with how this subgenre started and how it has evolved (devolved, maybe?).[/list]

I didn't notice there was supposed to be anything wrong with the big pic of the tanned girl until the two guys textually stated their horror Laughing

Quote:

Isekai and all the various circumstances that have led to its proliferation in the past decade feel like a pig being repeatedly fed its poop, struggling to wring nutrients from its increasingly recycled list of tropes until it starves to death.

That's hopeful! It implies the pig can die!

invalidname wrote:

“I am once again asking light novel authors to have a life experience more profound than playing a lengthy JRPG.”

That's kind of you, to assume they've played an RPG instead of parroting the opinions of the authors that parroted the opinions of the authors that parroted the opinion of the one author that played an RPG once and grinded like crazy. Laughing

Like, the way these authors describe RPGs is just... wrong. They tend to focus in the less appealing aspects, treated in the least appealing ways. They're breaking these games with a dozen Gameshark codes and that's what makes them good? For real?

medicinodestiny wrote:

I really do think some people would be a lot healthier and a lot happier to just admit they might no longer be the target demographic or audience for anime anymore. And their choices are either to age gracefully and adapt to the times or simply bow out and find something else. Choosing to instead plant their feet in the ground and insisting there's some sort of conspiracy or problem in the industry that only they have the clairvoyance to see doesn't sound like a great way to live life.

Nah to hell with that thesis. Narou-kei isekai authors are just awful writers on the median. Period. This has nothing to do with age or "the times". Other genres don't have the issues isekai does, because they have a higher proportion of competent writers.
Grabbing your stories from a glorified fanfic forum probably isn't the best idea if you're chasing quality in the first place.

I'll admit however that I've been happer since I started NOT giving a chance to such shows unless I'm shown some very VERY compelling elements. Unfortunately some awfulness still makes it through the cracks, last season a three year old being drowned in fluffy animals led to me watching one of the worst shows I've ever suffered.

Isekai truly is the social media of anime.

"Isekai" has become a loanword that means something different (more specific) in English than it does in Japanese. Same as "anime" itself.

After reading over some of the thread, I think there's also a strong argument to be made about people viewing older series through rose-colored glasses.. A lot of these older isekai shows would probably be a lot more heavily criticized by the naysayers if they came out today. Whether it's the fact .hack animes doesn't resemble any actual MMO either or it was filled with incest jokes and fanservice. Inuyasha being filled with stuff like naked Kagome or Miroku's perverted antics as well and no one cared. It's easier for people to look back on shows they grew up with favorable memories and forgiveness and be more cynical of modern stuff that's really no different other then it's more popular now and they're probably more jaded. I would genuinely love to see a Fushigi Yuugi remake happen just to see peoples reaction to that show if it came out today. Would it still be called a classic or would people roll their eyes at all the stuff in it and consider it garbage. I mean, I'm just now seeing Gen Z and Gen Alpha people on X discovering Card Captor Sakura and freaking out over things like Terada and Rika, and when Fruits Basket got a remake and movie that also attracted a lot of naysayers due to some of the content in it as well. If some of these older isekai came out today would they still be held up as positive examples or is it all just nostalgia clouding people's memories of these series.

q_3 wrote:

"Isekai" has become a loanword that means something different (more specific) in English than it does in Japanese. Same as "anime" itself.

Also this. I started seeing websites say shows like Frieren was a refreshing take isekai because it doesn't involve being transported to another world. I think people just use it as a stand in for 'fantasy' now. Or the people who say it as some derogatory term to mean a bad show they dislike. So basically it means anything other than isekai to some people.

Bertram wrote:

After reading over some of the thread, I think there's also a strong argument to be made about people viewing older series through rose-colored glasses.. A lot of these older isekai shows would probably be a lot more heavily criticized by the naysayers if they came out today. Whether it's the fact .hack animes doesn't resemble any actual MMO either or it was filled with incest jokes and fanservice. Inuyasha being filled with stuff like naked Kagome or Miroku's perverted antics as well and no one cared. It's easier for people to look back on shows they grew up with favorable memories and forgiveness and be more cynical of modern stuff that's really no different other then it's more popular now and they're probably more jaded.

The only part of .hack I know of that's anywhere close to being "filled with incest jokes and fanservice" is Legend of the Twilight Bracelet, and I'm pretty sure even a lot of .hack fans ignore its existence. (Plus it isn't remotely an isekai no matter how you define that term.) I can maybe count on one hand the number of gags that involved Kagome taking a bath, and a character like Miroku makes perfect sense coming from a mangaka who's been writing romantic comedies full of bawdy humor since the late 70s. If you're attempting to make an equivalency to the wave of poorly-written cookie-cutter pablum that's been filling up every season for the past few years, then you might want to come up with some more relevant examples.

medicinodestiny wrote:

Joe Mello wrote:

A compelling story is one where the storyteller feels strongly about their point of view. If these isekai writers are really just trying to tick boxes as the columnists implied at the end, then they have no hope of making anything other than empty, forgettable calories.

Keep Gettin' Them Checks, I guess, but do something you actually care about.

I think it takes a very deep-seated level of cynicism for people to be so sure that these authors don't enjoy the stuff they're writing. Especially for series that are massively popular and clearly have a lot of love and praise among the anime fandom. I very much doubt these people hate their jobs and would put forth the more likely alternative that they're creating series they genuinely do enjoy and want to make and in turn get rewarded by the fandom for.

I really do think some people would be a lot healthier and a lot happier to just admit they might no longer be the target demographic or audience for anime anymore. And their choices are either to age gracefully and adapt to the times or simply bow out and find something else. Choosing to instead plant their feet in the ground and insisting there's some sort of conspiracy or problem in the industry that only they have the clairvoyance to see doesn't sound like a great way to live life.

Agree with this mostly, altho I wouldnt say they arent the demographic for anime as a whole, just for these types of shows. Makes me still wonder why even bother doing the seasonal column on dunking all of these shows from just watching one episode, because most they talked about seemed to only be from watching the first episode. You arent gonna get a lot from just the first episode in a lot of shows.

They are just basing their opinions with the expectation that the whole show will just stay static for the entire run.
Like anythinig they saiid about 7th prince, besides the design, was just from the first episode. Nothing about the crazy stuff that came after (and the first episode was already pretty crazy), and also using 100 GFs as some sort of refresh for harems is just lol.

Top Gun wrote:

The only part of .hack I know of that's anywhere close to being "filled with incest jokes and fanservice" is Legend of the Twilight Bracelet, and I'm pretty sure even a lot of .hack fans ignore its existence.

Hey, speak for yourself. LOTT was great. I prefer it over SIGN myself. SIGN always got a lot of hate for being too "slow" and "boring" back in the day from what I recall.

I also don't think Rumiko Takahashi would get a pass these days for Miroku given some of the controversy Yashahime had with some people - especially in the Sesshomaru and Rin division. Older anime fans might not care much and be cool with this kind of stuff, but the more sensitive newer people probably would dislike the character like they do Mineta and Zenitsu.

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